He Left the Pizza Business for 13 Years. Here's Why He Came Back.

John Gristina grew up around pizza in the Bronx, fought it for years, lost a partnership, and walked away from the industry for 13 years. Then COVID hit. He started doing pop-ups. And the business that once burned him pulled him back in. 

Today John owns Pizza Fenice in Pelham, New York — Fenice meaning Phoenix in Italian. In this episode, he and Tyrell talk about the hard decision to walk away, the 13 years rebuilding his life, and what it finally took to go back. They get into his dough philosophy (your crust is the first and last thing anyone tastes), how he developed a creative menu including Captain Crunch chicken fingers and a green apple dessert pizza, why he built his shop around limited-time offers, and what it means to compete at Pizza Expo after years away. 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

What's going on, Pizza Fan? Welcome back to the Pizza King Podcast. I'm your host, Tyrol Reed. And this episode is a special one, right? This is this is one of those episodes that reminds me why I love the pizza business. And I think you'll love the conversation and you'll understand. Today I sat down with John Christina, owner of Pizza Fenice in Pelham, New York. He grew up around pizza in the Bronx, but like a lot of us, he tried to fight that thing that was already in him, right? He wanted to be away from it. He worked in the business as a kid, stepped away, came back, opened shops, went through a tough partnership, walked away from that, and for 13 years stayed out of the game, but eventually found his way back. And the name of his shop tells that exact story, right? Pizza Fenice means Phoenix in Italian. That matters because John's story is all about starting over, right? It's about losing your way, rebuilding your life, and coming back to the thing that clears your head. And that's on the pizza table for him. We talked about his journey from the Bronx to Pelham and why he bought the little dirty dog on the block, he called it a dirty dog pizzeria. He rebuilt that shop with simple ingredients and some really big and bold ideas. And we talked about why dough is still the first and last thing that matters on a pizza. We also got into competition and how he started and where he's at. We talked about some of his wild menu ideas, even Captain Crunch on chicken fingers and a green apple dessert pizza, um, and the part of the business that keeps pulling certain people back in, even when it makes no sense on paper, right? What I appreciated the most about John is his honesty. He didn't really try to make his journey sound clean. He didn't try to make it sound glamorous. He talked about his mistakes. He talked about the hard lessons that he learned. He talked about the seasons of fear. He talked about the peace that came later. He talked about the reason why pizza really still meant something to him and what he did in the face of that. This is a conversation for anyone that's ever walked away from anything and you know decided to make their way back to it and realize that you still have some unfinished business there. So I hope you enjoy it. This is my conversation with John Gristina of Pizza Fenice.

SPEAKER_02 2:29

I'll turn him who's John Gristina? Oh, Jesus. John Gristina, just a a chubby Italian kid from the Bronx. Chubby mama's boy from the Bronx, that that that uh grew out of his shell a little bit as he got older.

SPEAKER_00 2:46

Out of his shell and doing and doing your thing. But you didn't you grew up in pizza, but you haven't always done pizza, right?

SPEAKER_02 2:53

Oh, I fought it. I fought it. Why? You know, and it's one of those things where you say, well, maybe you could go back, change your change your your mind when you were a kid. So I didn't want to do it because it's one thing, it's one thing when your boss yells at you. It's another when you're when when it when it's your dad and he'll tell you, pay attention, I'm gonna smack you. And there's other people around.

SPEAKER_01 3:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:19

And it, you know, he wasn't really gonna smack me, but it's just embarrassing.

SPEAKER_01 3:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:25

I don't want to work for him. And then I I went to work, which he respected that I went and I got a job near my house at a pizza shop.

SPEAKER_00 3:32

So hold on, you left your dad's shop and went and worked.

SPEAKER_02 3:35

Yeah, I mean, I was I was like fucking 13, 14. I was 14, I think. And I and I went to work part-time at this place not too far from my house. Uh, and he was like, Oh, okay, but you're gonna work. You're not gonna no, no, I'm uh so he he actually he was okay with that.

SPEAKER_00 3:54

As long as you put the work in, he encouraged it.

SPEAKER_02 3:57

Yeah, because it wasn't like I didn't want to work for him and I was gonna sit around all day. I was doing something. So he was he he kind of respected that. But then I, you know, as I got older, it's like that's a it's a weird time, you know, and especially growing up in the Bronx, I mean, everybody broke everybody's balls for the tiniest little thing. You know, I was a smart kid and you know, my w my my parents of course were always pushing me to, you know, use my brain or whatever. As I got older, I you know, I realized I had more of an aptitude for for the the pizza business, but I still stayed with uh as much as I could. I hung in there tooth and nail with you know, with school to college and frickin' pre-med and um in and out. It was on like the 15-year plan, you know. I'll I'll switch to night school. And it was all right, I'm I'm going one day a week, and then it was like, all right, I'm getting married. Okay, that's gonna have to wait. And then got to a point where I was like, shit, I got kids now, and I gotta finish my degree at least, you know. So I at least I could turn to them and say, hey, finish what you start. Doesn't matter. Real quick side note when I told my wife, I was like, ah, I'm gonna go. I just like listen, it's I got like 10 credits left. But I think, you know, they're gonna get older and I have to be able to speak, you know, not as a hypocrite. That was my main reason for doing. So I I I I I I go to like an open house and fricking Dean, after some discussion, tells me, Oh, you have more than enough credits to graduate.

SPEAKER_00 5:36

You were already done.

SPEAKER_02 5:37

From a decade prior. And I and I lost it. I was screaming at this guy in the phone. You know, my life could have been different. What the fuck? Back and forth, back and forth. And then he was like, So do you want to want to walk? And I'm like, Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:54

Hell yeah, I want to walk.

SPEAKER_02 5:56

Yeah, well, so I I I I I go, it's literally, it was like January or February. You know, we go back and forth with like transcripts and stuff, figures out that, all right, if you didn't want to do this degree, you could graduate with this degree. And and I'm like, nobody ever told me that. Like, I would have I wasn't gonna go to medical school back, you know, 10 years ago. I was already married, and like, you know, like with kids, I I had like my my priorities had changed, but at least I would have known I would have finished, or I could have used that degree to get a job instead of floundering around a little bit on graduation at Autumn University on Rose Hill. Uh people, you know, I'm with people that are I'm like the oldest freaking person there. It's 2015, you know. So I'm I'm 40, 41 years old. 40 years old, and I'm standing there all looking at me like, were you in? I said, nope, I wasn't in anything. Nope, nope, you don't recognize me, you don't know me. I haven't seen any of you people. I wasn't in any of your classes, trust me. And the kick in the head, and I I laugh about it now, I'm sitting there and it's a beautiful day, and and I'm laughing at myself the whole time. I'm like, son of a bitch. Can't believe this, can't believe this. I'm just happy though. And a girl I went to high school with was getting her PhD. Yeah, that day I'm like, well, I got a kick in the head. And I actually messaged her on Facebook when I found out, I was like, you want to left? But um, it all worked out for the best, and then you know, I I was a uh, you know, I ended up in the pizza business in the early late 90s, early 2000s, and then I I ended up opening up my own place with a partner, and then we had two, and then we had three, and then it it didn't work out. It ended bad for a lot of reasons. His fault, my fault, doesn't really at this stage in the game, it doesn't really matter.

SPEAKER_00 7:56

Like, did that sour you and with to you know towards the business for a little while?

SPEAKER_02 8:00

I left.

SPEAKER_00 8:00

You were done, right?

SPEAKER_02 8:01

I was done. I had I was going through my own shit as we all do, and uh, it wasn't good, you know. And like I said, there were other problems inherent in that relationship, and and I did not I I didn't deal with them well, and you know, so I gotta I gotta take the blame where blame falls. Absolutely. But at the same time, I walked away with nothing. I walked away.

SPEAKER_00 8:26

Well, you walked away with your peace though, right? At least some peace.

SPEAKER_02 8:29

Well, yeah, the the peace came much later. So you you you know, you it was it was like it was like being at at a cliff and just saying, oh fuck it. I can't can't go back the other way. And I go through, you know, a a long time of putting my life back together.

SPEAKER_00 8:44

How long did you stay away?

SPEAKER_02 8:46

It sounds odd to say it like that. I mean, I did I didn't own a place. I worked for Artichoke Pizza for a little bit. I worked for Fran and Sal at Artichoke. I did consulting jobs here and there, but it was never anything super steady. And then I I worked for a myriad. I mean, you could count them off. I worked for Good Burger, Just Salad, Fresh and Co., all places in the city. Big, you know, uh uh multiple store uh franchises, you know, and then that was never ne it was never working, you know. It was a couple, you know, two, three years, two, three years. And then I I landed with the Cheesecake Factory in Westchester, and I was there for like three years. And that that was a good gig. And they, you know, they were like fast tracking me. They want to be me be a manager, and I was like, it's fucking great. I was kind of like proud of it. I was like, yeah, next year, another two years, I'll I'll be a store manager. They they give you a beamer, they give you stock options. It's a solid gig. You get you know, six-figure salary, and then I'm gonna be like, Holy shit, are they hiring right now? Yeah, right. That was the deal then, you know, and that's how they sold it. And then I'm standing there, it was fucking Sunday night. I never forget it. I j I had just gone to a funeral that week. Um, my buddy John, his father passed away, and we're sitting there and he decided to give a little speech, and he talked about his dad. And he's like, you know, my dad was never around, you know, but we understood that he was providing for us in a way that today is almost impossible. He put me and my sisters all through private school on a single salary. My mother was a stay-at-home mom, did the best for us. And today that's something that's uh pr pretty much an insurmountable thing to do. The times that he spent were that much more important. And like two days later, I'm staying in there, three days later, I'm I'm in my I'm at I'm at work at my Cheesecake Factory. Sorry, I had to wave to somebody. And it's like it's like nine o'clock on a Sunday night.

SPEAKER_01 10:54

I can't do this.

SPEAKER_02 10:55

Like my kids are still little.

SPEAKER_01 10:57

I don't want to be here.

SPEAKER_02 10:59

So I quit. I found a job where you know that was I had the weekends off. I worked, I went to Aramark, food service. I applied my attention bastards, they got me. I applied for a job that I was like, all right, I'm gonna make less money, considerably less, but I'm gonna have half the summer off. I was applied for a job as a uh uh uh food service director for a school. So I was gonna have two weeks off in the summer, I was gonna have the weekends off. And then you know, my wife's a teacher, and I was like, this is great. All right, so I make a little less money, I'll find something else, you know, I'll I'll do some some side work or whatever. All right. And then they they they baited and switched me. Then they they they like, oh well, that's not really available. That was like an internal we had a post it, but but we have this available, and it was the food service director for the county jail, and and I was like, all right, well, is it still weekends off? And they were like, Yeah, it's weekends off. It ain't weekends off because the freaking people gotta eat all weekend, and I gotta, you know, at least I got I gotta go feed a thousand people, you know, and it happened a few times. I actually didn't mind it, it was it was good, but it was it was a lot. So you you had to be there, you know, operations start at 4 a.m. And you know, and I did that for a while, and uh I got offered a job at a hospital out of the food service side, and it was uh it was an opportunity for me to take a break and kind of look at you know, reevaluate and figure out what I'm doing, you know, what I want to be when I grow up, kind of thing. Because I was only in my 40s, you know.

SPEAKER_00 12:40

Yeah, you got a lot, a lot, a lot of time left.

SPEAKER_02 12:42

Yeah, tons. Yeah. So we we we were I was working in a wound healing clinic in within the hospital, and I was kind of like assistant to the director and then office manager. It was it was a good gig. It was Monday to Friday. I was out of there by four o'clock, five o'clock, maybe, weekends off.

SPEAKER_00 13:04

Really? Well, I I mean, like I couldn't, I've tried other jobs too, and the day-to-day stuff just drives me crazy.

SPEAKER_02 13:09

It was I I think I I was going bananas. I was going banana, like I couldn't take it. And I knew my I knew my boss, and she was she was great. A couple of the people there were great, a couple were but couldn't take it. And in this was all around COVID. So I actually, because I was working there, I I got the COVID vaccine the day after that lady got it on the news. Like You were like first in line? I was like the first group the next day. There were other groups ahead of me, but I wasn't I wasn't like the next day. I'm like they're they're dishing it out at the hospital. I worked at a hospital, you all had to get it.

SPEAKER_00 13:44

That had to be that had to be the news from at least for us, was that what was happening in New York was crazier than everywhere else.

SPEAKER_02 13:53

It I mean, it was crazy in the sense that you know it was some shit you see on TV, like every everybody's wearing a mask. It it was it was almost as if it was like everybody was waiting for it to get worse. Yeah. And it just it was bad, but when it didn't reach like, you know, movie proportions, you know, where you know, where people were dropping dead in the street, well, thank God. Well, that's when everything started to take a turn. Like, what are we doing here?

SPEAKER_00 14:23

Now let's now let's get back to normal.

SPEAKER_02 14:25

Right. And then it just for the love of God, none of us are back to normal. We're all messed up from that shit. Still. You know, yeah. You know, um, and then while I was there, uh, you know, I moved and there was this pizza shop that was nearby, and noticed it wasn't open consistently, and I had a hunch, and I I asked a friend of mine as a realtor to go and talk to the owner, and he hadn't listed it yet, and he was he wanted to sell, and that's where I am. I bought the place. Took me four months to get up the nerve to tell my wife.

SPEAKER_00 15:01

That you were negotiating to buy a pizzeria?

SPEAKER_02 15:03

Yeah, yeah. So I had I had like I you know, I just I figured I was like, I'll just put everything in place, I'll make sure I I I know where the money's coming from, and you know, it's not gonna put us, you know, in in in in uh financial jeopardy, you know. And then um I told her, you know, it's something I I I I gotta do. I gotta I gotta go back and I gotta make sure because you know, when you do something with a partner, sometimes you you don't know uh if it's you, if it's them, if it's what you know, especially when you buy into a place, which is what I did, and it's all there, you're you're buying into a system. You know, and I you know, whether you agree with it or not, suddenly go go go scratch. This is already make this is already working. So I wanted to do things different. So funny thing, uh you know, I I turned to my wife and I had just bought the leg lamp from the Christmas, and I was in the bay window at my house. You know, it was quiet. She wasn't, you know, I told my wife I'm doing this and she's thinking and she's looking at me, and I was like, Don't worry, I'm gonna take the lamp to the store, you know. And kind of she kind of kind of broke the tension a little bit. And I was like, oh no, it's gonna be cool. I'm gonna take the lamp away from the house.

SPEAKER_00 16:21

You know, like don't don't worry about anything else. Yeah, it'll be all right.

SPEAKER_02 16:25

At the very least, the lamp will leave the house. Thank God. A little luck and some perseverance and and things have been going good.

SPEAKER_00 16:32

You you took this on, so you went from a situation where you were kind of running somebody else's system to now you're gonna do your own thing, your own recipes, your own style.

SPEAKER_02 16:42

No, I I it should be, and I I and it wasn't, it was scary in the sense, but it it really wasn't. And I I don't want to say I was afraid. I want to say uh I was anxious because I at the very least in my head I said, if this doesn't work, then I you know, if I if I open up and and nobody likes what I'm making and and and I get no positive feedback and and nobody comes and I have to sell the place and hopefully I get out of it without losing, you know, the money I borrowed, at least I could close the book on that.

SPEAKER_01 17:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:20

You know. So so yes, there was there was some fear, but it's like you gotta do it. You're afraid all right, but I I gotta you know, like when you're a kid and you finally decide that you don't want to be afraid of it of uh of the dark anymore, and you're like I gotta I gotta I gotta do it. It's gotta happen. It was more of of wanting to to to figure out do I do I have a reason to to to still want to do this or should I should I just is it just you know a cool hobby that I can have in my back pocket, you know.

SPEAKER_00 17:55

This is what we're waking, you know, into the shop. What was the first thing you was it dough, was it sauce, was it a pizza that you had in mind? I started it all over.

SPEAKER_02 18:03

I had I had done some consulting work and I had written up these ridiculously they were good too. I know the kid the kid that the kid that was running this one place told me he was like, This is the best sauce I ever had. I came across all the best pizza sauce and I didn't use any of it. I just I was like, you know what? I I'd gone into this thing and I was like every everywhere I went in New York, like New York, the standard stuff is always it's always got a like a huge like heavy cheese, heavy spices, not like hot spices, but like there's always a lot of garlic, a lot of regular tasting anything except all the spices. So I kind of wanted to scale it back into all right, what do we where's the flavor coming from without it without all that stuff added? And I just I made a few th I made a few things and I I really liked it and uh very simple and I I I I spoke to a few people um that I know that were still in the business and they had changed the way they were doing things. I just wanted to start from a good base. So I you know, I I worked on on on dough and sauce a little bit and to figure out you know, all right, what's the best flavor I can get that I like out of the simplest ingredients for this without getting too crazy. Because I you look at my menu and uh somebody's gonna look I'm listening to this and look at my menu and go, oh, he's full of shit. Look at his menu. That being said, you know, I've always felt like pizza is like a like a plate or a palette, you know, of color. I have no problem making a like pastrami ruben pizza, like literally like an open face sandwich. I have no problem. My favorite combination and one that almost everybody loves is I had one. Um I had competed with this and I liked it. I carried over, and that's the thing that got me like thinking, all right, we're gonna do things this way. We're gonna I'm gonna develop this kind of uh pizzas and and you know, elaborate, but still my opinion, simple. So people think I have and I do have rocks in my head, but people like John, you don't know simple. So this was like I call it a Sunday sausage, it's a cooked sausage, peppers and onions cooked on a stove, and then it's topped with a couple of things, and then I put a couple of sauces on after, and it's it it's really is that kind of pizza to a different level. But as far as simplicity goes, if if the crust is, if your dough has no flavor, that's the that that's that that's the first and the last thing you taste. That dough. The first bite, the first thing that touches your tongue is the bottom of the pizza. The last thing when you're done is the crust. And if that has no flavor, and what's the point? You could I might as well serve it on a paper plate and you can eat it off a paper plate.

SPEAKER_00 20:58

Very true. So start starting with the dough, you know, you making sure you have a good base, you redeveloped your sauce, even though you'd already created wonderful sauces for other folks. You said, no, we're just gonna throw all that shit out. It's good, but it's not what it's not what we're doing here. And you made it and you just started from scratch. Right.

SPEAKER_02 21:19

I mean, listen, we all borrow stuff from from stuff we learned over the years, you know. Uh, so I can't, I'm not gonna sit here and blow smoke up someone's butt and say, oh yeah, everything's 100% original. Throw it all up myself. Not true, because I've worked in this business a long time. So you pluck ideas. Pick up things here and there, yeah. You know, and there were there were a few times like a guy that I used to work for, and I said, Hey, listen, just so you know, this might sound like your pizza. He's like, I don't give a shit about that. You know, I just hope you do well, blah, blah, blah. It's like, I you know, I don't want you to think. And then another friend of mine, I was at his shop. Three guys that well, they don't make pizza, they all kind of Egged me on to get back into the business. And then I and then I'm wondering you should be doing this again. Well, and then another guy I know, another two guys that go by their shop and talk out some ideas or both them in hand. He's like, You work like you missed this kind of thing. So one guy, I'm in his place, uh, my friend Omi owns Bocce and Montrose, and he I said, What the hell is that? He's like, Oh man. It's like those are chicken fingers coated in Captain Crunch. What? Exactly. So I picked one up, I ate it, I looked at him, and I was there to tell him that I had decided I was doing this again. I went, I said, just so you know, I'm fucking stealing this. And I'm not joking. I'm a hundred percent like I just watched you make it, I'm making those, I'm putting it. He was like, I don't care. So uh 100% ripped off directly from him.

SPEAKER_00 22:52

It's wild. Captain Crunch.

SPEAKER_02 22:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:55

Chicken fingers.

SPEAKER_02 22:57

Oh, it's so freaking good, man.

SPEAKER_00 22:58

Whoa.

SPEAKER_02 22:59

So it destroys your fryer.

SPEAKER_00 23:02

I'm sure.

SPEAKER_02 23:03

But it looks like you poured sand in your fryer.

SPEAKER_00 23:07

I don't even want to get into it because then I'll go try it and I'll kill my fryer.

SPEAKER_02 23:11

But when I'm not leave a pot of oil on a stove and do them one.

SPEAKER_00 23:15

Just do it in the pot. It sounds pretty wild. And I like crazy stuff like that.

SPEAKER_02 23:20

Take some Captain Crunch, take some some semolina flour, right? Mix it like not maybe not one to one, maybe like two to one ratio.

SPEAKER_01 23:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 23:33

So use it as a breading.

SPEAKER_00 23:36

Man. Man. I remember we were doing, I was when I was with Fuzzy's Taco Shop, we were doing our breaded chicken with cornflakes then, but Captain Crunch sounds even better.

SPEAKER_02 23:47

And it's just my breadcrumbs, I mix panko and cornflake. Dude, it's it's really good. It makes a difference. It gets a little bit of sweet. I, you know, I so I basically I have seasoned Italian breadcrumbs with cornflake breadcrumbs mixed in.

SPEAKER_00 24:00

Yeah, and it's more crispy.

SPEAKER_02 24:02

And the Captain Crunch, man, I don't I don't I only do it like and we make them to order, so you can't you can't like prep them ahead. Yeah. They get they get tacky. All the sugar starts to dissolve. The moisture from the chicken turns it into like a paste.

SPEAKER_00 24:19

So it's very limited, just a whole offering of it.

SPEAKER_02 24:21

Yeah, you gotta make it, you gotta make it to order. You you can that's the way I like to do it.

SPEAKER_00 24:26

You well, you do a lot of limited, limited, even the chicken wings, where we're only doing them for Super Bowl or you know, little stuff like that.

unknown 24:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:34

I was talking to Tori T who who who made me introduce myself to you, and she, I was like, oh man, I've been trying to figure out uh, you know, something to do with with green apples. I love green apples. I haven't really found a good way to incorporate it into a pizza. Yeah, she goes, Ask John. He'll he'll he'll do something crazy and he'll just think of it. He goes, she said, you could throw any topping at him and he will figure out a pizza. Is that true? You can take any topping and make a pizza.

SPEAKER_02 25:02

Is that do you take pride in that? Yeah, yeah. So I have uh I do a dessert pizza with green apples. Yeah. It's the simplest dessert pizza you could make. There's nothing fancy about the prep or whatever. You literally just take some sliced green apples. I like to do it both. I do a crust with a little bit of cheese, and I throw some green apples on it, bake it, pull it out, put some raw green apples, and you cover it in caramel.

SPEAKER_00 25:30

So you get soft apples and you get a snap of fresh apple and you get the caramel. Okay. I have to get that one from it.

SPEAKER_02 25:37

That's his that's that's probably honestly, that's the simplest pizza that I make in the start.

SPEAKER_00 25:43

Flavor though.

SPEAKER_02 25:44

Yeah. Um, but then I have I have another one on the menu, and I actually, this guy ordered it last night, and I I put it on, I put it on out of spite because somebody, somebody insult tried to insult me by calling my store an artsy bullshit place. So I put a pizza on the menu called an artsy, and it's it's a it's artsy.

SPEAKER_01 26:02

It's artsy.

SPEAKER_02 26:03

Yeah, it's it's it's it's crumbled sausage, sliced dry Italian sausage, red onions, green olives, green apples, and then I put a uh balsamic glaze and provolone sauce on it.

SPEAKER_00 26:16

And you serve it on white porcelain.

SPEAKER_02 26:19

Yeah, right. No, but so I I I made it, and it honestly, I I every now and then I laugh because I did it out of spite that I got that comment. No joke. I told the guy, this guy, John, that comes in all the time, he ordered it the other day and I laughed. He said, What's so funny? I was like, this is coming off the menu. This is like the sixth time I've made it, and I've had this menu iteration for three years now. So I haven't changed it two years. I've only made five of the pods. Is what people are like, you know, the artsy, I don't like it. But this guy ordered it and I didn't think of it. A customer comes up with something and they're like, you're like, shit, I didn't think of that. He ordered it on a Detroit, and it looked and smelled so much better than the version that I had made. And it was the same stuff. It was just on a Detroit because you get that it cooks longer.

SPEAKER_00 27:08

Yeah. You know, more caramelization. You get yeah, you get that freaking. And now I can't, and now you can't even take it away.

SPEAKER_02 27:20

Well, I'm gonna say, I mean, we'll see. I'll make it for the winter, but it's it's it's almost like I I made it. I'm like, this is like a kitchen sink pie. And it, you know, if it if if it's done right, it's good, but if it's done wrong, it it's just it's a bread bowl.

SPEAKER_00 27:34

One you've ever done.

SPEAKER_02 27:35

Craziest combination in the store. No, because I I I get weird sometimes. You know, like I I did a lamb chop pizza for uh for Easter. Oh that it wasn't well, yeah, it wasn't lamb chops, it was it was Lego Lamb, and it was good. Like that because I I I made like a pan.

SPEAKER_00 27:53

I remember looking at it like this has gotta be like a hundred dollar pizza.

SPEAKER_02 27:56

Yeah, there's no way, like I I can't ever make that again. Like I made it and I sold it, and then as I'm selling, I'm like, well, there's two dollars I lost, there's another two dollars I lost, because I I I was just telling people, yeah, well, I was charging eight bucks, and then and when I finished it, I was like, that's like a ten dollar slice of pizza. It was just it was a lot involved. Like I it had it was roasted fennel, and then like seasoned um uh rosemary freaco crumbled up. Time and money into that. Yeah, it took me freaking two hours to make that, and so and I don't mind doing it. I kind of like doing stuff like that around the holidays because it's a limited time, it's a limited amount. When it's something like that, I never feel bad about it. You know, I I do feel bad about it, but I I I don't lose sleep or going, hey, sorry, I I don't have it right now. You want it? Come tomorrow. Give me a day and time that you want it, I'll make sure I have the stuff. Like the the Thanksgiving pizza that I make. I make it for the month of November. It's a lot of work, but the fact that I'm only making it for that month, I make sure I have enough supplies and we we gear up and we get it prepped so that I I could put one together. It's still a long time to put one together.

SPEAKER_00 29:08

Are there any any ideas that you come up with that just never m never make it to the slice case or never make it to the menu?

SPEAKER_02 29:14

Yeah, I I I wanted to do I wanted to do a French onion pizza, like a French onion soup. But just like you gotta cook it down until it's like a gravy or an onion stew. I I made and I was trying to work on it and just it was it was always too a little bit too salty because you could I I never I never perfected it. Um but it was good, it was good. It was good. Like if I took those onions and I put it on like a like a Philly steak or put it on a ribeye or whatever, but uh, you know, so that there's always that stuff lingering in the back of my head that sometimes I'll do it. Listen, this is a small shop, it's 700 and change square feet, 60, I think, 775. Okay. Not a big place.

SPEAKER_00 29:59

You got a small kitchen.

SPEAKER_02 30:00

My kitchen is like barely 300 square feet, it's like 200 and some square feet. And that includes the bathroom. My kitchen, my kitchen, there's no like extra space. There's the small space in front of the sink, there's the two steps that lead to the back door, there's the little space in front of the six burner and the deep fryer, and then there's the space in front of the three-door fridge, and that's it.

SPEAKER_00 30:26

Hi, where do you where you keep all your dry stuff?

SPEAKER_02 30:28

Anywhere it fits.

SPEAKER_00 30:29

Wherever wherever you can fit it.

SPEAKER_02 30:31

I have I have a rack in the back, and admittedly, I have to clean out some of it because there's some equipment that I just say, hey, oh, we're not gonna do this, I'm not gonna use that. Like I I I bought some stuff that I don't need or that I didn't gotta make some of those uh eBay or or Facebook marketplace posts and sell it off. I well before I did the one of the three, like I I said I had those three guys that they were always like needling me, kind of like you know, why don't you get back into the business? When I was working at the hospital, it was during COVID, and you know, people were all these people were doing pop-ups and cooking out of the house, and I was like, well, I I can do that.

SPEAKER_01 31:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:07

So I started doing like I bought a couple of Blackstone ovens, like the ones that the rotating rotating.

SPEAKER_01 31:11

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:12

Love that oven. And by the way, that company missed the mark so poorly to Uni and Gosni. Those ovens are beasts, beasts. I made pizza for two, three hundred people on two of those, you know, and you can only put one pizza at a time in it. And those things, all and and refractory time, one minute. I just leave it alone on high for one minute and it's and it's hot again.

SPEAKER_00 31:41

It's it's surprising that you don't see more more folks using it, especially, you know, like professional pizza makers, because it is a badass out there. Dude, I'm telling you. For a pop-up, man, that thing is that thing is nice. If you're gonna cook one pie, it's pretty good.

SPEAKER_02 31:53

So I started doing those and I I I had a blast. And that's when it put the seed in my my head to to look for a place. Doing like a little pop-up party.

SPEAKER_00 32:04

You were you're starting to have some fun with it again.

SPEAKER_02 32:06

Yeah, yeah. And and you know, I I have this discussion at least once a week with people I know. I I get I get phone calls, I get offers to oh, we should open a place, we should do something together. I like or or my favorite is you don't need to be making pizza, blah blah. It's like actually I you don't understand. This is broken, and I do, because that's my catharsis. That makes me feel better, you know? Like I I don't know you from a hole in the wall, and you you seem like a great guy, but if you have passion for for for this type of business, and I'm saying this wholeheartedly with everybody I know that has a solid passion for working in the environment of a hundred and twenty-degree kitchen in August, we have something broken in our head. And because we like that. It ain't about money. No, it ain't about money. No, it's not. If I if I opened up, I bought the ugliest, dirtiest pizzeria within four miles of uh, you know, if you if you put a dot in my store and did a let's say two miles radius, there's 20 pizzeria.

SPEAKER_00 33:24

Jeez.

SPEAKER_02 33:25

You know, and I'm not even exaggerating. There's five north and south on the strip that I'm on. Within a mile. Jeez. And this was the dirty dog.

SPEAKER_00 33:37

So And you said I'm I'm taking it.

SPEAKER_02 33:39

I figured I could, you know, literally I said, oh, this place needs a bath. Needs a bath, and it'd be a nice little shop to just I don't know, just pay my bills. I'm not looking to buy a Lambo and and and and park it out front.

SPEAKER_00 33:57

Park it out front. Yeah, do some Instagram content.

SPEAKER_02 34:01

I want to pay my freaking con ed and be able to take my kids out for dinner. That that's what I was looking to do. And you know, not have my wife go, uh how are we gonna cover the mortgage? That was my goal. Cover my bills and clear my head. I could tell by the look on your face, you know what I mean by clear my head.

SPEAKER_00 34:19

Yeah, trust me, that's my that's my space. And I don't make pizza every day, but if I tell if I say, look, I'm stepping in tonight, they know it's just that's because I want to.

SPEAKER_02 34:28

That's six by that that three by six space, you're good.

SPEAKER_00 34:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:33

Don't mess with anybody because you're gonna lose.

SPEAKER_00 34:37

Yeah, I can I can do that. I'm still pretty good too, and I can that's my favorite place to be is making those pies.

SPEAKER_02 34:42

You know, I so I I make I have one guy that makes pizza here on Sunday, and it's it's only because he knows me and my family for five years. Like he knows way, way back. Yeah, I was a little kid when he was working for my dad, and he he he he works here on Sunday. I do all the pizza. I have a great, great prep guy uh who's been with me for three years. He came here, came here to to to wash dishes, and I said, Do you wanna do you wanna learn how to do prep? Because I had just I had just fired the guy cooking that day. It's been it's been one of those like, oh yeah, we're gonna do this, we're gonna do that, and and and I I had to keep changing things because I had couldn't find the right people.

SPEAKER_00 35:30

What what inspired you to compete? Because you I mean, competing is something that's you've done since the very beginning as well, too, right?

SPEAKER_02 35:37

Yeah, uh well, you know, I I started doing that because um I now it's just fun. It's like a break for me. You know, you go to Vegas. I don't I don't like I don't like getting crazy anymore. I mean, you gotta you gotta leave the craziness. You gotta give yourself one night out there. You gotta have you gotta have one night where you go, that shit is just my home. You can't you gotta have fun other way. So I I like it. I like I like being in the back with all the competitors. I I like talking to people, getting new ideas, helping other people because they look at you and they go, Oh shit, you've been here a lot. How what do you you know what do you think? But to me, that's a lot of fun. Like I said, broken.

SPEAKER_00 36:21

Having fun. I think it's I think it's cool. And I've never competed at you know, yet, and I'm pushing myself to get there. But I look and I go, damn, these guys get to work on any oven. Look at this. We got all the all the greatest pizza makers from around. They're all back here and they're sharing ideas and talking about toppings and doing this, and it's like, dude, this is like Mecca. This is like pizza heaven right here.

SPEAKER_02 36:43

It's great. It's really great.

SPEAKER_00 36:45

So what it and not just not just you know, toppings or making pizzas. You you done fastest, fastest pizza, you've done largest stretch.

SPEAKER_02 36:54

You didn't do research. Yeah, that was a long time ago.

SPEAKER_00 36:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:58

I was doing fastest pizza. I got as far as winning the trial, which was at the time they they used to have like these regional trials because there were other shows around. There were smaller shows. So it was 06 or 07. I was at the Javit Center or five, and I won the trial, and then you got to go to Vegas and in the finals, and I had a I I was had a little bit too much of a good time. I I I was not in the best state of mind when I went through.

SPEAKER_00 37:26

You gotta get your head in the game.

SPEAKER_02 37:28

Yeah, man, it was bad. You know what? I remember just standing there and laughing, and I the guy who was the my judge at that time was looking at you're right. I was just like, this is gonna be this is not gonna be good, but it you know what? I always had fun at those things, man. It's cool to to to to know that you're part of a you're part of a community that garnishes you a little bit of respect for what you do, you know, and if you if you need to lean on them, they're there for that.

SPEAKER_00 38:02

And I really like yeah, I I love I love that part of it too. Pizza is is the greatest community.

SPEAKER_02 38:06

I'm definitely gonna go to the uh Columbus is a good town.

SPEAKER_00 38:10

I'm really trying to make the Columbus show. I I didn't go last year, but I do want to make it this year for for Columbus.

SPEAKER_02 38:15

Which is funny, I I went to a restaurant or a food and ice cream show or something like that. It was out in Columbus. They had like a pizza competition, but it was it wasn't had very little to do with pizza, like other than that competition. And I remember going and I had a blast, it was a great show, but uh what's stands out in my head is I had probably one of my top three meals my life at this place in Columbus. Really?

SPEAKER_00 38:48

What was the name of the place?

SPEAKER_02 38:50

Marcello's, I think it was, or Marcello's.

SPEAKER_00 38:52

Somewhere. Oh, was it right there next to the convention center? Like a couple of blocks up on the show.

SPEAKER_02 38:57

I I would be surprised if it's still there. It was fantastic. It was a nice, it was a nice Italian restaurant. When you walked in, it didn't really look like a restaurant. I was like, oh, this is like a fancy sandwich shop. There's like the because the first thing you see in the back is like a deli counter. But they were that they they sliced all their meats fresh for their charcuterie boards or whatever. They sliced it right there and you could see it on display. And uh, but it was really, really nice. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:27

Oh, yeah. I know it's still there too. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:29

I never forget it was a lamb osobuko with a white bean ragu.

SPEAKER_00 39:34

That sounds like really expensive.

SPEAKER_02 39:36

Uh, I don't remember. I think somebody picked up the tab on that one, but I just remember they sat it down in front of me. I was like, this was a nice meal. I I I don't remember one conversation. I just remember, I just remember saying, John, you're real quiet. In awe from the It was delicious. Remember it to this day. I actually stole the menu. I have the menu in my house.

SPEAKER_00 40:00

All right, well, if we both make it to Columbus, let's meet there and and I'd love to do that, man. Get a meal. I spend some more time with you. John, this has been this has been really fun. Tell us, tell the folks where they can. We talked through your whole story, but we didn't even drop the name of the shop, which is somewhat part of your story.

SPEAKER_02 40:17

Pizza Phoenix. Um, not fenis, not fenice, not fenice, fenice. It's the Italian word for Phoenix. I'm gonna give a logo real quick.

SPEAKER_01 40:29

Boom.

SPEAKER_02 40:29

We're in uh Pelham, New York, 20-minute train ride from Grand Central, five block walk from the train. There it is.

SPEAKER_00 40:36

Hey, like and like the Phoenix, you arise.

SPEAKER_02 40:39

That was the plan.

SPEAKER_00 40:39

I love it. It was really good to meet you. Thanks for taking the time to talk to me.

SPEAKER_02 40:43

Thank you so much for having me on. Uh I really appreciate it. Anytime, you know, thanks again. Definitely, bro. Thanks.

SPEAKER_00 40:50

Have a great day. Appreciate you know, just giving us your time, your your history, your lessons, and I know somebody will be inspired to just get out there and go kick some ass, man. Make it simple, but make it good.

SPEAKER_01 40:59

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 41:00

Thanks, Sean. Take care, buddy.